Bernie Sanders Goes on Tim Dillon's Podcast, Cosigns White Nationalism
Ideally one would not do this.
If you’ve been on the internet at all in the last ten years, you may have observed or even participated in intra-left debates over whether it is practical and ethical for left-wing politicians to go on right-wing media platforms, for instance podcasts hosted by Joe Rogan and his idiot racist friends, in an effort to win over their massive right-leaning audiences. There are people I respect who believe the answer is yes more often than no; I myself tend towards no more often than yes, though I concede that the question is outside my wheelhouse, for which reason I believe that if they’re going to do it—which apparently they are—then they owe it to the many vulnerable people targeted by the Rogan crowd to vigorously push back against their hosts' extremist ideologies. Otherwise they risk uncritically legitimizing their hosts, many of whom are not only idiot racists but outright white nationalists who actively support white nationalist politics.
For an example of this effect in action, consider Bernie Sanders’ appearance today on Tim Dillon’s podcast. More specifically, consider the bit where Dillon complains about (Muslim) immigrants failing to assimilate to Western countries, to which Sanders responds: “I respect that. I think that’s fair.”
Dillon: When you look at the UK, for example, and you look at the issues that they're having around migration, some of these issues are financial, some of them are cultural. Some of these are cultural issues. These are different groups of people learning how to live with each other.
Sanders: That's right.
Dillon: And there is this knee-jerk reaction to call everybody a racist that has concerns about culture. And I don't mean people going like, "I don't want to live with Muslims, or I don't want to live with—" Obviously there's elements of racism to that. But the United States, when you have large groups of people, whether it's Qatar giving the president a plane, or it's Israel going, "We need more money," or it's the Governor of Minnesota, Jacob Frey telling a Somali delegation, "I'd love to go to Somalia." One of the reasons I think Zohran's doing so well is he goes, "I'm not visiting Israel. I'm going to stay in New York."
Sanders: And he is focusing on the issues facing the people in New York.
Dillon: There are people that believe, and not in a paranoid, racist, crazy way, but that groups of people are using and exploiting not only America, but other successful countries, Western countries, and that they’re going in there and they don't care about the laws, rules, customs, culture of the country. They're going in there to suck money out, or they're going in there to establish a power base and dictate—a lot of people are worried about free speech. A lot of people are worried about laws that are supposed to be protecting Jewish people, but they really are protecting criticism of Israel. There's people that worry about Islamic groups that are demanding that certain laws be passed that restrict any criticism of Islam. How can we have these conversations where they're not, where people aren't having these knee-jerk reactions about racism? How can we say that we do have a civilization that believes in certain things, and then if you come to it, or you come to the UK, come to any country, you have to respect the laws, customs, and culture of that country? You cannot turn that country into something that it fundamentally isn't, right? You can't demand that—
Sanders: Look, if I come into your house, you invite me to dinner, you are my host. And I respect that. I think that's fair. No one forces someone to come to another country. I think that basic principle is correct.
That basic principle is not correct: a country is not a house. Moreover, it is very much the case that people are forced to migrate. As Dillon points out frequently, often citing the white nationalist Steve Sailer, western militarism caused massive displacement in the Global South, and climate change is bound to cause even more in the coming decades. Sanders is presumably not aware of Dillon’s fondness for Sailer or his recurring complaints about Muslim immigrants muddying up Western culture, but he doesn’t need that context to discern the naked racism in Dillon’s rant, with its naked concern for Western “customs” and “culture” in the face of Muslim immigration.
Seth Simons
You may be wondering if Sanders offers any pushback after the excerpt I’ve quoted. He does not, though to his credit he does somewhat resist Dillon’s suggestion that the Democrats care more about immigrants than “citizens”:
Dillon: How do we figure out how—because there's a lot of the... When Zohran says, "I want $100 million to deal with legal disputes for undocumented people in New York." There are a lot of Americans and New Yorkers that go, "Why aren't we spending $100 million and investing it in the Bronx, or Brooklyn or areas of..." Some of the empathy that the Democratic Party used to have for citizens not having healthcare, it does seem to be always directed in the direction of immigration.
Sanders: Well, Zohran is, I'm sure, a Medicare For All advocate as well. We've talked about healthcare in New York City, et cetera. And I think he's going to do a great job in trying to deal with the affordability issue here in the city. But I think we're as a nation at a very unprecedented moment, in that you have a president who wants more and more power unto himself. And I think it's important that we stop him and ICE from these terrible raids of throwing people into vans. And I think that's what Zohran is trying to protect people who have lived in New York City, or all over the country. I've seen people all over the country for decades, they're working hard. He does not want to see somebody in a mask, pick them up, throw them into a van.
Dillon: Yes. And I disagree with those ICE raids, but if we're encouraging people to attack ICE, or block ICE vehicles—
Sanders: No. And I don't think anyone is talking about attacking ICE.
Dillon: Well for sure. But if that happens, that is being used as the pretext for these troop deployments in the states.
Sanders: What Trump is doing is totally crazy. He's trying to say that, "In Portland, Oregon, they are trying to overthrow the United States government."
Dillon: No, no, no. I understand. I understand that that's insane. But I do think that Zohran, if he goes to war with Trump on enforcing federal immigration law, will make New York a pretty crazy place to live.
It is Bernie Sanders’ prerogative to spread his message where he sees fit; I respect that. I only wish he could do it without endorsing the unhinged racism of a brazen white nationalist like Tim Dillon.
Seth Simons
